Caregiving Blog: Subjects Caregivers Avoid
Subjects Caregivers Avoid
Subjects caregivers avoid from a radio interview on CUTV News Radio with host Doug Llewelyn and Pamela D. Wilson featuring subjects caregivers don’t know to talk about or avoid plus common situations that caregivers face.
CUTV News Radio with Host Doug Llewelyn and Pamela D. Wilson
00:02 Announcer: Welcome to CUTV News Radio where our hosts, Doug Llewelyn and Jim Masters, talk to today’s top thinkers from all around the world to bring you information, inspiration, and thought-provoking ideas that you can put to use in your personal or professional life right now. Covering a broad range of topics, we dig deep to discover what makes today’s top thinkers tick. CUTV News Radio, it’s the show where ideas matter. And now, here’s today’s host, Doug Llewelyn.
00:35 Doug Llewelyn: Well, hi everybody, welcome back to CUTV News Radio. Hey, we’re really happy because Pam Wilson is back with us today. We’ve spoken with Pam numerous times over the last series of a couple of months. She is an expert in the subject of caregiving, and once you hear her get into this subject, which is really extremely complex and it’s something most of us really never think about, but it’s something that any one of us could be thrust into at any moment. I mean, suppose you have a mom who lives 10 cities away from you on the other side of the country, and all of a sudden she gets sick, or she’s injured, and there’s no one there to care for her, and you are the only child left and you’re in New York, she’s in California, and boom, what happens? You get thrust into the job of taking care of mom, and it becomes really complex. It can be just as bad if she lives right down the street from you. Or there are any myriad of situations you could comprise where, suddenly, you are thrust into helping care for someone else, and it’s something you have never prepared for, never thought about, and don’t have a clue of what to do, and you’re gonna pull your hair out before you know it. Well, Pam Wilson is the one person who can give you so much information and instructions on the best way to handle the particular situation you have been thrust into.
The Caregiving Trap: Solutions for Life’s Unexpected Changes
02:00 Doug Llewelyn: I really love talking with Pam because she is so knowledgeable on this subject. The way she got into this was she was thrust into being a caregiver herself early on in life, and she’s made this her profession. She has a fabulous website which has so much information. It’s amazing what she has done. And she’s written a book, which we talked about, but we never really diagnosed the book, or gone into the book in detail. The book is called The Caregiving Trap: Solutions for Life’s Unexpected Changes. That’s really what it is. Caregiving can become a trap for you, you know? If you pause and think about it, it can become a trap. So anyway, Pam is back with us today, it’s really a delight to have her back. She’s headquartered out in Golden, Colorado. Let me give you her website, make a note of this, pameladwilson.com, okay? Pameladwilson.com. If you go there, you’ll find out more information than you thought even existed on the subject of caregiving. So, let’s welcome Pam back. I hope it’s a beautiful morning in Golden. You know, just the name Golden, Colorado makes it sound like it has to be a beautiful morning. Is it?
03:09 Pamela D. Wilson: Yes. Colorado is a happy place any day. It is beautiful today. [chuckle]
03:15 Doug Llewelyn: Well, good. Welcome back, nice to have you back again. By the way, I also should mention, Pam does a radio show in which she does an hour radio show, I guess it’s every other week. How often do you do it, Pam?
The Caring Generation Radio Program for Caregivers and Aging Adults Airs Live on Wednesday Evenings
03:28 Pamela D. Wilson: It’s every Wednesday night. It’s an hour, and so it’s 6:00 Pacific, 7:00 Mountain, 8:00 Central, 9:00 Eastern. It’s called The Caring Generation, and it’s live. I talk about caregiving subjects. Last night, it was How to Deal with Stubborn, Aging Parents. Is it you or is it them? And then I have just interviews, so I have AARP coming up. Everything that’s of interest to people who are caregivers or helping their parents. It’s important information.
03:57 Doug Llewelyn: Well, I think that’s very good. Tell us how people find it, how do you… Where is it?
04:03 Pamela D. Wilson: So it’s on my website. If you go to, pameladwilson.com and you click on the media button, there is a drop down for the Caring Generation Radio Program, and there’s a whole page about the radio program where you can click to listen. I promote it through social media, so if you follow me on Facebook at PamelaDWilson.page , I do a video every Wednesday, I put the link in there where you can click, and then after the show, so about a week after the show, we have the transcripts and we put the podcast on the website along with the transcript, so if you miss it, you can go back and listen to it, and if you would rather read, you can read the transcript.
04:37 Doug Llewelyn: Well, boy, I’m glad I asked that. That’s great. It makes it easy to find the radio show, then, if they go to your website with the dropdown menu. That’s cool.
04:44 Pamela D.Wilson: Yes. Yes.
If Something Happens to Mom She Can Go Into a Nursing Home
04:45 Doug Llewelyn: I’m glad you do that because we’re doing a radio interview with you, but the more exposure you get and the more people who are exposed to your information, that’s terrific because a lot of people need this. I want to talk about your book, The Caregiving Trap. We’ve mentioned it off and on every time that we do an interview, we point out you’ve written this book, The Caregiving Trap, but I’m telling you, if you sit down and look at this book, you have done so much work. There’s so many details and statistics in it about the lack of education, how education is so important to that and why that is a key thing in the world of caregiving. You talk about nursing homes, a lot of people think, “Well, if something happens to mom, she can go in a nursing home,” or whatever.
05:32 Doug Llewelyn: And then you talk about the people who work in nursing homes, how so many of the employees, and this is not every nursing home, but there are enough that fit this category, I’m sure, have very few skill requirements for the employees they hire, minimal selectivity in hiring, cursory initial orientation, very little on the job training for them. Obviously, they’re being paid low wages, they get virtually very little benefits, and so often they’re treated as unreliable and easily replaceable, and yet these are the people that you’re here trusting that are going to help your loved one who ends up in a nursing home. It makes it sound like it’s really a scary situation, is that right?
CNAs are Undervalued
06:14 Pamela D. Wilson: It’s a sad state of affairs. And I have caregivers that comment all the time on Facebook, people who work in nursing homes, or CNAs who work for private companies, and the issue is, anymore, we don’t value these people. They could get paid more working at McDonalds or Amazon, which is a shame. So we don’t pay the people who take care of our loved ones, who really can make an effect on somebody’s life, we don’t pay them. And then second of all, they may have a CNA license, but beyond that, the nursing homes, the care companies, they have no time to train these people. They are lucky to get what I call a live body because it is so hard to find people that care, and people who are willing to do this type of work. And I don’t mean that as a negative, but some of them have to bathe 10 people in a single day. They’re changing Depends all day, they’re cleaning up after people. Some of these people are mentally ill, they have dementia, there’s behaviors, they’re getting screamed at. These care jobs, these caregivers… God bless them all, they’re difficult jobs, and they’re so not appreciated, and the industry doesn’t support them.
07:23 Doug Llewelyn: Well, it does sound… It sounds dismal to say the least. What kind of advice, talking about nursing homes, what kind of advice do you give to folks who’ve been thrust into the role of caregiving? And all of a sudden find that they really are going to have to get whoever they’re helping, whoever their patient, client, whatever it is, should get into a professional nursing home. What kind of advice do you give them about how to find one that’s reputable, and that they can trust, and that would be good for their parents, if it’s a parent that’s the problem?
How Do Aging Parents and Spouses Go Into A Nursing Home?
08:00 Pamela D. Wilson: So that’s an interesting question. So let me just give you a little bit of a back story. So, many times when people go to a nursing home, the first place that they come from is the hospital. Now, because of all of this. And I do get on my soapbox. I get into the government issues again, okay? So, hospitals get penalized if patients return within 30 days. Nursing homes are facing similar penalties. Hospitals are making under the table deals with nursing homes saying, “We’re going tell our clients to come to you, so that you don’t send the people back.” So my first recommendation is, find out who’s telling you that your loved one has to go to let’s say, Mary’s Nursing Home. And sometimes it is an issue of insurance.
Do Your Own Investigation of Nursing Homes
08:42 Pamela D. Wilson: So insurance companies only pay for certain nursing homes in the plan, so that’s your first constraint. Your second constraint is, I don’t know that I would take a recommendation from a hospital. You want to go visit these places. And the most beautiful places can have the worst care. The most important thing is staff longevity. How long has that executive director been there? How long has most of the staff been there? When you walk through, is it clean? Does it not smell? You’ve got to go visit these places and really check them out. Everybody goes to Medicare.gov and the five star rating poll, 50% of those ratings come from the nursing homes. [chuckle] And for God’s sake, when you sign a contract, never sign the arbitration agreement. That is illegal. There are so many things that people don’t know about the inner workings of the healthcare system that gets them into trouble, that I know because I’ve done this for 20 years. So in my online courses, in my classes, these are the things that I coach people about to say, “Don’t just take a recommendation. Look into it. Meet the people. Talk to the staff.” You’ve got to do all this. Otherwise it could be a bad situation for you.
09:53 Doug Llewelyn: That’s really great advice. Do most nursing homes, are they willing to let you come in, walk around, take a look, explore?
10:00 Pamela D. Wilson: Oh yes, yes.
10:00 Doug Llewelyn: Yeah. Okay.
10:00 Pamela D. Wilson: All you have to do is schedule a tour. Sometimes, I would go and just not schedule a tour. Because if you schedule a tour, they can make sure everything is looking spic and span. If you just show up, that is really what you’re going to see.
Healthcare Provider Shortages
10:15 Doug Llewelyn: Yeah, that’s a very good point. You write in your book that there’s a shortage of healthcare providers looming on the horizon, especially ones who specialize in geriatrics? Who are those who specialize in geriatrics anyway? It’s kind of interesting looking at the long list of professional caregivers that you have in the business. It covers a lot of territory. [chuckle] But who are the ones primarily that deal with geriatrics?
10:38 Pamela D. Wilson: So there is a specialty called geriatricians, and there are very few geriatricians. There’s not enough. Honestly, there aren’t even enough doctors anymore that take Medicare. But geriatrics is a specialty. People have to want to love older people to go into that specialty. Most doctors, anymore, are so impatient with old people, and they don’t want to deal with old people. And I think I’ve told you before, I’ve had so many doctors in the emergency rooms and hospital say, “Well, honey, I know they’re your client. But they’re old. Let’s just not treat them. Let’s let them die.” There’s no dignity in that. And the healthcare system really does have a bias against treatment for older adults. So it all goes back to, again, being an advocate, making sure you have the right doctor. If your doctor isn’t being helpful, change doctors. And I know that older adults don’t like to do that because it’s a hassle. But if you’re not getting the treatment, if they’re not being considerate to you, you’re with the wrong doctor. And there is a shortage… There is a shortage of geriatricians, and again, doctors who will take Medicaid and Medicare.
11:43 Doug Llewelyn: Boy, that sounds pretty bad. Sounds dismal. And we’re all getting older every day.
11:51 Pamela D. Wilson: Yes. [chuckle]
Writing The Caregiving Trap
11:52 Doug Llewelyn: I don’t know. Let’s talk about the book. How long did it take you to put this together? It is an amazing book with just about 300 pages in it all together, but it is so full of information. How long did you spend putting this together?
12:07 Pamela D. Wilson: I spent 12 years, and I have to laugh because I would write it and then rewrite it because it wasn’t good enough. And then I would learn something else and I would want to add it. What really made me finish the book was the radio program. I did the radio program from originally first time, 2009 to 2011. And all of the listeners were saying, “Where is your book?” And back then I was doing two hours every week, and I had no time to finish this book if I’m doing the show. So I finished the program, and I committed to rewriting the book. So I rewrote it again, it took me six months. Got it to the editors and everything. The editor, oh my God. When I got it back from her, it was not my book anymore. I wrote a hate letter to the editor for about four months, and then I rewrote the book again until I got it done. But it really is 20 years of my experience, sweat, blood, tears, family experiences, everything.
13:00 Doug Llewelyn: Well it’s a fabulous book. For those who have not heard your story at all. Give me a brief description of how you got into this. To begin with.
Pamela’s Beginning as a Family Caregiver
13:08 Pamela D. Wilson: Youngest of six children, I was the baby, and from a very early age, so beginning in my 10 years, 12 years, 13, teens, my mom was so sick I watched her suffer most of her life with heart disease and health issues. Back then they didn’t know that you shouldn’t smoke and have all of these other habits. So, kind of my caregiving experience started with my oldest sister, she was killed in a car accident when I was 17, and then my mom’s health just really went sideways and I in my 20s, would take her to the hospital emergency room, all of that. She ended up passing away when I was about 35, my dad a couple of years later and then my brother after that. And this is my epiphany looking back… Twenty years ago, I don’t even think we talked about caregivers. I didn’t know I was a caregiver and I was. We didn’t know what questions we should have been asking the doctors, all of that.
14:01 Pamela D. Wilson: So what do I do? I go home, I’m the executor of my parent’s estate, I’m cleaning out their house and I find a whole list of things I want do when I grow up. Because I was actually feeling a bit lost then and there were four things on the list, fly jets in the Air Force, be a forest ranger, join the Peace Corps. And the last one was help old people, that came out of counseling that I did in high school. So over the next couple of years, I investigated the industry, I did a lot of volunteer work and I left my corporate career to do this 20 years ago. And my experiences, the things I’ve learned, the people I’ve met, invaluable and I know that I can help caregivers not have to go through what we went through as a family and what my clients went through in those 20 years. It’s hard to be a caregiver.
Women Are the Caregivers
14:47 Doug Llewelyn: No kidding. Especially if you aren’t prepared for it. According to your book, I find this really interesting. I know these statistics, came from the Alzheimer’s Association, but women are much more likely than men to be caring for a loved one who lives in their household, and they have to be on duty 24 hours a day. Most people don’t realize, caregiving is a 24-hour-day job. And that really crimps their style, it changes their life if they become a caregiver. And most people get thrust into this kind of a situation, I presume, without warning for the most part. Would that be right do you think?
15:23 Pamela D. Wilson: That is right. There is no warning. It’s kind of what happened to… and I’ll say us with my father. So, my mom passed away. My dad was not doing very well. I get a call from him saying he’s depressed and he almost committed suicide. So here we go again on another whole caregiving mission. And yes, women are the main caregivers. I hate to say it, but caregiving is women’s work, men want to assign it to someone, they want to assign it to the women, mostly because they don’t know how to control it, and they can’t manage it. So you can’t fix a loved one who needs care, or whose health is getting worse, and that is very frustrating for men. So the women are the empathetic ones, and they caregive for aging parents, and spouses, they become the 24/7 caregivers who can’t leave the house, because mom or dad has Alzheimer’s or the spouse has Alzheimer’s and it becomes… This is where the name of the book came from. It becomes a caregiving trap.
Caregiving From a Distance
16:24 Doug Llewelyn: It is such an appropriate title for the book. Let’s talk a little bit about some other things that people don’t realize that they’re going to encounter when they become a caregiver, especially… And you have many examples, and we’ve spoken about this before, examples of caregivers, who live in one city, and the parent is in another city on the other side of the country. And most often, I understand it’s the baby in the family that gets thrust into being the caregiver. Would that be right in general?
16:54 Pamela D. Wilson: It is. A lot of times it is the baby. And in my family, it was because I was more available. So at the time, my mom was really sick, I wasn’t married yet, I was just working and going to school and trying to juggle everything. And then for long distance caregivers, so we had many clients who lived in Denver and children were in Washington DC, they were in Los Angeles, we were hired to manage the care of their parents and update the children. Now, everyone cannot afford to do that, which is the struggle. So there are alternatives. You can get video cameras and other things, but it’s very difficult when you live 2000 miles away, and you can’t imagine what’s going on with your parent, and your parent says to you, “honey I’m okay”. The last time my mother told me that she was okay, I came home for Christmas I found out she was diagnosed with bladder cancer, she died two months later. Parents saying that they are okay, does not mean they are okay.
Online Courses and Support Groups
17:52 Doug Llewelyn: Wow, that’s, that’s amazing. To get back to your website and all of the information that’s available on there. You give courses, you have courses in the subject of being a caregiver, you do webinars. By the way, what is a caregiving webinar? How do you describe that?
18:09 Pamela D. Wilson: So a webinar is… The easiest way that I can describe it is like a Facebook Live. So every morning around 7 o’clock Denver time, I get on Facebook and I talk about a caregiving subject that usually comes from the people on Facebook, they will say, “Can you do a video about this?” so webinar is similar. So it’s me live. It’s just a webinar program instead of Facebook Live, talking to caregivers who can talk back, they can come on camera, they can put questions in posts and we talk about whatever issues that they are facing. And so the courses are really courses because I don’t have a better name for it, but it really is caregiving support week in, week out, solving your problems, helping you help your parents stay at home, managing power of attorney process. It’s one-on-one support because a lot of times caregivers can’t… They don’t want to wait two weeks to get an answer, so they can go into the course. Post questions, I get the questions and they can come live on these webinars and ask questions.
19:12 Doug Llewelyn: By the way, it makes me think, when you’re doing the radio show, do you take calls from listeners?
19:17 Pamela D. Wilson: I do, it’s 866-451-1451.
19:22 Doug Llewelyn: That’s great. You’re getting a lot of really instant feedback and input from the people who listen to you just like you do on the website.
19:31 Pamela D. Wilson: Yes.
What is A Caregiving Webinar?
19:31 Doug Llewelyn: That webinar, that’s a great idea. Your courses, you teach people how to be caregivers. Explain about that.
19:39 Pamela D. Wilson: I do. The Stay at Home course is… A lot of caregivers will say, “Well why do I need that? I already know what I know.” And sometimes, it’s really hard to convince people. I can’t convince anybody that they need my courses, but what the courses offer is really the things that people don’t know. In my 20 years of experience, what did I learn about nutrition that most people don’t know? What did I learn about skin wounds that people don’t know that cause these care disasters, that then cause parents to have to go to a nursing home? It’s a lot of practical information that people don’t know because they don’t. I read this stuff every day, I’ve lived it for 20 years, I was on call, I researched. I have so much information in my brain to share with people that is helpful, that it’s amazing. And it really can make a difference in the care of parents.
20:32 Doug Llewelyn: And what kind of feedback do you get from people who’ve taken these courses, and who get this information from you?
20:40 Pamela D. Wilson: People will say, “Oh I wish I would have known about you years ago”, or “I wish I would have known help existed.”
20:47 Doug Llewelyn: Yeah, that makes sense.
Thank God I Found You
20:47 Pamela D. Wilson: Most of it is that people don’t know that this type of help exists because let’s say they go to the doctor’s office, The doctor is just treating a disease. The doctor doesn’t say, “Well you might try a course or you might try a support group.” Because the doctors don’t even know that people like us exist. It’s really, “Thank God I found you, you’re an angel. You’ve helped me with my situation. I didn’t know that this help existed. I am so glad that I found you.”
21:17 Doug Llewelyn: And if you look on the website, there are so many bits of information that one can find out. For example, there are three signs. What are the three signs that an aging parent may need more help in order to stay at home? Are there three key signs, and if so, what are they?
Three Signs Aging Parents Need Help
21:34 Pamela D. Wilson: Gosh, there’s probably 20. But the first one is that they’re losing weight. Okay, weight loss is a significant issue with older adults, because a parent could lose 10 pounds, and you don’t even notice it because they wear baggy clothing. If your parent is losing weight, there’s either nutritional issues, or there’s health issues. The second sign is how are they getting around? Is their mobility okay? Mobility, early signs of mobility, so, difficulty walking, difficulty, gait, which is putting one foot in front of another. Those are early signs of dementia. There are so many signs about mobility that we take for granted. We just think, Oh, well, they’re getting old. Let’s just give them a walker,” rather than “Why don’t we walk for exercise.” And then there’s the undiagnosed memory loss issue. Is your parent forgetting to take their medications? Are there notes all over the house, are they getting forgetful? And that’s hard for family members to notice. It’s easy. I can walk into somebody’s house or meet somebody and talk to them for 10 minutes and know… Oh my gosh, they have Alzheimer’s, but children miss those signs. They attribute it like all of us do, to really, they’re getting old. This is just what happens with age. It isn’t just what happens with age, so there are so many signs that parents need help.
What If You Can’t Be There Every Day?
22:58 Doug Llewelyn: Well, you just got to be there. But suppose you’re not around the parents, suppose the parents are living hundreds of miles away from you, and there’s no one else there, another sibling close enough to see what’s happening and how your parents are aging. That becomes complex, too, doesn’t it?
23:16 Pamela D. Wilson: It does. When I moved away from Omaha, I would call my father almost every day and talk to him. That’s one way. But if there are neighbors, you would be surprised what neighbors know about your parents. If there is a neighbor or a cousin, or a friend or somebody that you can have stop by, you might be able to find a volunteer that can do that for you. You do need some type of eyes on your parents if you’re living far away, some type of check-in system, some way to know so that when they say, “Honey, everything’s fine”, that the house isn’t burning down. You’ve got to have a check-in system.
Being a 24/7 Caregiver
23:54 Doug Llewelyn: Well, that’s important. You also talk about what life is like for someone who’s thrust into the situation of being a 24/7 caregiver. We hear stories about after a while, people are ready to pull their hairs out. Talk a little bit about that subject. How can they maintain their sanity when they’re thrust into a situation of caring for somebody literally 24 hours around the clock?
24:24 Pamela D. Wilson: It’s difficult. So many caregivers feel isolated, caregivers get depressed, the statistics show that caregivers become more sick than the persons for whom they’re caring for. The way that many of them make it through is honestly, prayer, meditation, trying to take little breaks. But if they can find support somehow… Maybe it’s just calling a friend and talking to a friend a couple of days a week. I always recommend trying to take a break and getting out, even if you just go sit outside for 30 minutes and you’re still home, you’ve got to get yourself out of the routine to take your mind off all of the stress because it can be overwhelming. And there’s some research right now going on in Florida and this is more with men than women, but males become so despondent, again, because they want to control the situation, and they can’t manage it, but they are murdering their wives. It’s a serious, serious issue. So I always tell people, “Get help before you need it,” but the problem is caregivers don’t know that help exists.
The Effects of Stress on Male Caregivers
25:30 Doug Llewelyn: You talk about… You’re talking about men murdering their wives, are these men who are caring for their wives?
25:36 Pamela D. Wilson: Yes, the statistics are… There’s a court case going on right now in Florida… The statistics are that most of these men were in highly controlled lives. So maybe they were executives at corporations and they ran everything or they were policemen or they were in the military, and they’re watching their wives decline and they don’t know what to do about it, and they don’t know that help exists. So they murder their wives and then many times they end up committing suicide themselves. Because they’ve become so despondent over the situation. It’s horrible.
26:09 Doug Llewelyn: Wow, another thing that doesn’t get talked about is what is the cost involved of being a caregiving? Is support available? Obviously, it’s available, but what about the cost? How about that? What kind of information do you have for them?
The Costs of Caregiving
26:26 Pamela D. Wilson: Let’s talk about the personal cost first. So the personal cost is many women will opt out of the workforce. Women are so disadvantaged they will cut back on work. They will opt out of the workforce to take care of parents and spouses. So they lose income, they lose retirement income. When they need care there is no one to care for them. More women end up in nursing homes on Medicaid and die alone than any other group. You know men don’t. So there’s all the personal cost to health, and your future, but then caregiving costs. So, in home caregivers, $20 to $30 dollars an hour nursing homes, $200 to $500 a day assisted living communities $4000 to $10,000 a month. This is why there are so many family caregivers because who has that kind of money? They don’t. The ability to pay for care is another huge stress on caregiving families.
27:24 Doug Llewelyn: Boy, what a subject, what a subject it is to talk about. Pam Wilson is our guest. As you’ve heard, she does a radio show on this. She has a fabulous website pameladwilson.com. If you go there, you’ll learn about… You learn about everything in this whole field of caregiving. You do so much. My question to you really Pam is what more can you do? Every day you’re out there doing something to help people, what’s next for you?
Pamela’s Mission to Reach 1 Million Caregivers
27:56 Pamela D. Wilson: I have to find a way to reach a million people Doug, that is what’s next. I have to find a way to reach so many people who don’t even know that caregiving help exists and just to continue to… Carrying on the conversation about caregiving, because we as a society don’t talk about it. I need to change the caregiving world. So that is what’s next for me.
28:19 Doug Llewelyn: Well, I’m so glad you’ve been a guest with us. Again, Pam Wilson, she’s in Golden, Colorado, by the way. I know you speak a lot. Do you speak at organizations around the country or is it mostly there in Colorado? How does that work?
28:33 Pamela D. Wilson: I will speak to anyone who invites me. I love to speak at conferences, I love to speak to employee groups, anyone who invites me I will entertain the thought of going to speak. Even if it includes traveling, I don’t mind traveling.
28:46 Doug Llewelyn: Very good Pam, thank you. We’re out of time pameladwilson.com, that’s the website. The book is The Caregiving Trap. You’ll find out information on getting that on her website under radio show. And if you want her to speak, get in touch whether she’s willing to come talk and tell the story. Pam thanks for being with us just great chatting with you. Okay, thank you, Ma’am.
29:08 Pamela D. Wilson: Thank you so much, my pleasure.
29:11 Doug Llewelyn: You are welcome and that’s it for today everybody. We’re out of time. Our guest Pam Wilson, I love chatting with her, she is a walking book of knowledge on the subject of caregiving.
29:49 Doug Llewelyn: That’s it for now, everybody, I’m Doug Llewelyn. We’ll see you next time. Till then take care of yourself. Bye for now.
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